Clavicular Is a Symptom, Not The Cause (with F.D. Signifier and Kat Tenbarge)

[00:00:08] Not This ASMR This is a visual based joke so the people who are only listening to the podcast aren't gonna get it I bought a hammer for this guys, I'm doing props now I'm hitting the microphone with the hammer so that it's uh, microphone fibers will grow back stronger Matt, I love the reveal that you didn't have a hammer

[00:00:36] I'm happy you said it because I thought the same thing like damn You gotta at least have a hammer You don't have a tool I had to go out and buy a hammer It is a nice one too, it's all, it is neon with grips $12.99 baby Hello, hello and welcome back to A Bit Fruity, I'm Matt Bernstein, I'm so happy that you're here

[00:01:06] I recently spent a weekend at a leadership conference where I was invited in my capacity as a podcaster and where most people were a lot older than me We're gonna talk more about that later but I got pulled into multiple conversations over the course of the weekend where people wanted me to explain to them clavicular and looks maxing mostly because they kept hearing those words from their kids Clavicular is the online pseudonym for the 20 year old Brayden Peters

[00:01:35] a radical men's self-improvement in heavy air quotes influencer who advocates for all manner of aesthetic intervention including weight loss, GLP-1s, peptides, testosterone injections a variety of what he calls pharmaceuticals and at times crystal meth He's perhaps most famous for his practice of bone smashing

[00:01:59] a pseudoscientific wellness practice that involves taking a hammer to your jaw and cheekbones and creating microfractures so the bones will grow back stronger and more pronounced Heavy on pseudoscience It's not real Please don't do it Clavicular has millions of followers across platforms and I don't think I need to make a strong argument on the morality or virtue of any of this

[00:02:24] But while I conceived of this episode as an explainer on Clavicular and his influence on young men I've since noticed how much of the existing media about him which attempts to do the same thing is... not good I might argue that I'm mogging you right now Okay, well, you know, that's a fair perspective Are you mogging me right now? I don't know

[00:02:52] So much of the discourse around Clavicular centers around what he does and the fact that so many young people watch him hand-wringing about how to get him off the internet But as someone who personally led the charge to get Andrew Tate deplatformed five years ago I can tell you guys that this type of reporting is at best a small fraction of the story and at worst, not the point at all If we can't be genuinely curious about what's happening here and why

[00:03:21] we'll just keep mocking young aggrieved people like they're zoo animals without changing any of the outcomes And I get that someone like Clavicular is seemingly begging to be gawked at with his outlandish beauty routine But I also think the fact that he has millions of devoted followers should call upon us to do a deeper inquiry into the conditions that produced whatever's going on here

[00:03:46] Reminder, taking something seriously does not mean endorsing it I do not endorse bone smashing So we're gonna take a deeper look today And to do that, I am so excited to be joined by two of my favorite people Welcome back to the show F.D. Signifier, YouTube leftist video essay king And Kat Tenbarge, writer of Spitfire News Welcome to the show, guys Thanks for having us So excited to talk about this

[00:04:16] And hopefully not smash our bones Yeah, no bone smashing I feel pretty satisfied with my bone structure to not employ the use of a hammer I do have my very first hammer in case anyone ever wants to use it throughout the course of this Afterwards, you'll begin by learning how to hang up a painting in the apartment instead of smashing your cheekbones in I don't do that, my boyfriend does That's the magic of a gay couple

[00:04:41] Before we launch into this, what is your baseline knowledge coming in slash feelings slash whatever? I have, this is my take on clavicular You got it This is the Dadaist response to the rise of Jordan Peterson So Jordan Peterson was this big deal starting in I feel like, did he start like 2018, 2019 is when he really got his like big blow up

[00:05:08] And he dominated the male attention space He has since died What? This is news for me No, he's not dead But he, according to his daughter, he might as well be I don't know the full story It's weird There's like a brain worm or mold I thought that was there already, but continue Something's going on And he's not the same He may never return to be present

[00:05:36] But whereas Jordan Peterson represented this like elder intellectualized misogyny And, you know, a bunch of other things He was still able to subterfuge a lot of it into academic mumbo jumbo And, you know, the legitimate credentials he had as a former professor And Jungian philosophy And he had serious debates with other serious philosophers And so, much like any like major movement

[00:06:05] There's always a reactive movement that comes after it So we go from Jordan Peterson telling boys to clean their room and to get married And, you know, relatively benign things in between the quasi-white supremacist fascistic rhetoric And that begets Clavicular, who is this like id goblin He's like the id of what the manusphere's true desires are

[00:06:33] Plus some level of neural divergence And so it's just really, it's really an interesting kind of profound pendulum swing Both serve the ultimate same purposes But it's just a very different vessel for that I feel like in seeing Clavicular and a lot of these specific trends Like bone smashing And like taking all of these like supplements and chemicals To try to enhance your appearance

[00:06:58] It reminds me like of so many of the trends that I've previously seen in eating disorder and self-harm online spaces Aimed at predominantly women And like teenage girls in particular But this is like the male flavor of a lot of that stuff And I think that like to your point FD Like so much of this is on the rise At a time where like fascism is dominating our politics and our culture

[00:07:24] And this is a very like fascistic version of personal appearance It's obviously, it's white supremacist in nature And in line with those white supremacist values It's like thinness This Eurocentric beauty standard That emphasizes things like pronounced cheekbones And being extremely thin And being extremely muscular And for so long we've seen like this sort of panic But not actually any solutions Presented around the issue of like

[00:07:54] Why are young girls and women doing all these things to themselves And now it's very interesting to see like The way that the media is similarly But on the flip side Positioning young men engaging in all of these behaviors That are ultimately self-harm Like they are self-harming In the pursuit of a beauty standard And one of the arguments that I am going to try to make today Is that none of what Clavicular is doing is like new

[00:08:23] And frankly like that it's not coming from a different place Than like any like diet or weight loss Or like Biggest Loser-esque content is I mean it's brought to those extremes And I think most notably it's geared towards young men Which is why we take sort of a renewed interest in it But anyway, we'll get there Shall I launch into Brayden Peters' early life? Absolutely Not a lot of people know that his real name is Brayden Peters Which is a very like

[00:08:51] It's very like a like Have you ever seen the meme of the young white like southern mother Holding up the whiteboard? She's pregnant She's like should I name my kid like Lakin Or Braylee Or Watkin And it's This feels like very in that vein Brayden is like the most like elder gen alpha name That I could imagine for like a white boy He's born on December 17th 2005 in New Jersey

[00:09:21] He's raised in Hoboken His parents were competitive bodybuilders before he was born Which I think is really interesting It's also very relevant Because I imagine that did a lot to shape his value system around aesthetics Dysmorphia is extreme Basically you have to have body dysmorphia to be a bodybuilder It's kind of like not possible to not have body dysmorphia and be a bodybuilder

[00:09:48] Also more than likely anabolic steroid use and use of other illicit substances to produce a certain look This starts in the home to pull a somewhat fraught problematic phrase A lot of what he's doing right now and his matter-of-fact response to it Is probably a byproduct of what he witnessed as a child And I feel like that's so crucial because oftentimes in looking at young people who have like self-harming behaviors and eating disorder behaviors

[00:10:17] We assume that the internet introduced them to these ideas when like more often than not They're very complex biosocial disorders that do come from like parents and authority figures Instilling these values at a young age and sometimes even the same detrimental behaviors like steroid use He went to seton hall preparatory high school Which that won't mean anything to most people but that is very close to where I grew up

[00:10:46] I went to public science high school, but like we would play seton hall and all these Like, you know sports things that I was not involved in But I heard he went to seton hall and I was like, oh like you're from down the street. That's crazy He was by his own telling a real loner growing up He has always had an obsessive personality as a young person. I mean he's still young but as a younger person

[00:11:08] He loved nerf guns and he really loved gta-5, which is a normal thing for young men to love Uh, he is neurodivergent He talks about that pretty openly I think it is a really important part of this story that often gets glossed over because I think Now a huge part of his content and unspoken part of it is the spectacle of watching a neurodivergent person

[00:11:34] Handle social interactions, especially in a place as like turbo charges miami. Uh, can I send you guys a uh Yearbook photo class of 2024 he graduated high school in 2024 Wow I need to like pull myself back from being being like a boomer now where I'm like He graduated in what? It's striking how like almost unrecognizable he is here

[00:12:00] Like if you show me this picture with no other context, I don't think I would immediately say that that was clavicular Like knowing that it's him. I can see the similarities but he looks strikingly different I don't know. I disagree I've seen well, maybe it's because i'm older and i've seen I was a high school teacher and i've seen this like i've seen guys first off This is a young handsome man Mm-hmm This is not a some type of goober

[00:12:28] This is a handsome young man that does not look so different than the person he's become now to me I could very easily see it. Um, especially when you add a pretty We'll say intense cosmetic routine Um, i've seen more drastic transformations in fact, so I don't know I I I do get that it is striking in terms of like the vacuousness of his eyes the like 1000 yard stare He always has now as he's talking to people like this is clearly him masking

[00:12:58] Which is this all the conversation? I also think it's interesting because he's never by his own admission gotten plastic surgery and like, you know He'll rattle off a list of a million things that he does for his beauty routine I am of the opinion that a lot of what he's doing doesn't do anything Like I think he just like went through puberty. This is my opinion. I think he lost weight I mean he talks about being on a glp1 and having formerly used crystal meth to like weight loss max

[00:13:31] But like I don't know. I think he like changed up his style. He figured out his hair gel I don't i'm with you after like, I don't think he looks that different Well, I have really bad face recognition so that could No, we're not trying to gang up on the woman. I swear Well, okay. I do have to also say I love that his senior quote is albert einstein a person who never makes a mistake Never tried anything new. Oh wow. Is that even a real albert einstein quote?

[00:13:59] Probably not, but it works for him Sounds made up I also just think it's interesting to note here. I posted on the a bit fruity instagram a story just like teasing like i'm doing a clavicular episode Someone responded this could be fake But they responded a guy I met on a park bench after a party We went to got raided knew him meaning clavicular and his brother Went to school with him and watched him get beat up Oof

[00:14:28] I don't know. Of course that could be fake, but I I think it's uh an interesting detail here I think it would make sense if he was like Bullied or just like experienced that type of like culture at a young age You would track a lot with like kind of his mentality around how to improve yourself in society Yeah, yeah I think I think we're lucky. He's not a school shooter because

[00:14:51] Being neurodivergent can expose you to so many risk factors around bullying around social ostracism and joint engaging in Manusferian content, which he admits to doing um Um, the fact that he did look like this that he was a He's like six one shouldn't I know that let me google it Six two six two um, so probably like six feet Considering the nature of his work But I say all that to say like and I think we're gonna get to this

[00:15:21] There is like truth to his worldview of like the way you look Being meaningful to how you're treated in society So as a moderately attractive man who also probably had neurodivergent traits growing up as a father of a very handsome young boy Who has some neurodivergent traits? I can tell you that when your personality Doesn't match the initial impression

[00:15:50] That can in a weird way create a buffer from some of those worst outcomes. Does that make sense? Like when I've seen him try to talk to girls And they're so they're so down They're so with it initially because he's very attractive But as he talks you can see them being like oh you're weird Yeah, and he doesn't get a drink in the face, but he does, you know get dismissed eventually

[00:16:14] Mm-hmm in high school clavicular was very involved with online forums like looksmax.org Uh other sort of incel adjacent forums at age 14 Which was also around the time of covet lockdowns clavicular who I should say at this point is still just brayden peters Begins injecting himself with mail order testosterone

[00:16:39] His parents kenneth and lauren found out and every time that they found the testosterone They would make him throw it away So he set up a p.o. Box to keep ordering mail order testosterone He graduated high school and began sacred heart university Which I believe is in connecticut in the fall of 2024 and was expelled after just a few weeks for hiding illegal

[00:17:01] Illegal testosterone but also there is speculation that his involvement with those online looksmaxing communities led for them to Dox and report him to the school because there's you know all sorts of bullying that goes on in those forums Yep So needless to say he was Expelled from college after a few weeks, which he now says is like the best thing that ever happened to him Which frankly, you know He's making a lot of money. So i'm sure he does feel that way

[00:17:31] Yeah, depending on your metric of success It could have been the best thing that ever happened for him for his health Probably not Probably not Before he really blows up online which is only in the last year everybody He worked as a wage cook at a restaurant in massachusetts And it was during this time that he was making this like looks maxing content on youtube It really blows up in the summer of 2025

[00:17:57] The covid part of this is really interesting and like generational to me I feel like we we already are experiencing this and we're already like reckoning with this Which is that during the period in 2020? Where a lot of like kids were doing online school a lot of people were doing some sort of quarantine We saw like the rates of people's online engagement just like skyrocket

[00:18:21] And even people who were not previously extremely online like became very extremely online during this time period And now we're kind of reckoning with like the fallout of that which is that a lot of people fell down radicalization pipelines And it's no surprise because like looking at the bigger societal portrait here People were scared and anxious and looking for ways to like control their surroundings

[00:18:46] We also know that eating disorders like reported rates of eating disorders people seeking treatment for eating disorders Skyrocketed in these early days of the pandemic because one of the motivations for wanting to like Restrict and control your body is knowing that it is one of the few ways you can control what's happening to you And so I think that is like really inextricably linked with like the earliest days of the pandemic and the quarantine

[00:19:13] And like that is a very generational component of clavicular and his like peer cohort to me I used to do public health um in behavioral health There's going to be like some really interesting longitudinal studies in like 15 years about how covid affected a generation of young people Both my my children who were very young when covid started and like a person like clavicular who was coming into high school

[00:19:41] So starting high school during covid a very critical juncture My oldest son was in second grade when the lockdown started Versus my youngest son who had not started school at all and had to start school on zoom And there was like a major difference in like turmoil in my household trying to like Manage my younger sons like everything and then when he got to school finally two years later

[00:20:06] Uh, there was a lot of work to like get the ball rolling with social skills, etc. Also, he's on the spectrum So I have to say like that covid part I don't even think we're scratching the surface yet Totally brayden says he was inspired to start making online content by the likes of nick fuentes as well as Other fitness influencers. He is cited rich piana as a role model rich piana

[00:20:33] A bodybuilder and youtuber who died in 2017 at the age of 46 cause of death not completely determined But was likely from a combination of things including long-term steroid use It's very telling that his role model is someone who died relatively young Because it's just like it goes along with this really nihilistic worldview where it's like literally like live fast die young like Bone smashers get it all Yes

[00:21:03] The more i've gotten into these topics the more i've really wanted to become like An advocate for young people and I don't want people to mistake that as like an advocate for what clavicular is telling young people to do But clavicular and the millions of people who follow him trying not to jump ahead in my argument notes They feel that way for a reason they feel nihilistic like that for a reason

[00:21:26] And every time like we as the media completely ignore that in favor of just like laughing at these people We're doing a disservice And there is a reason There whatever okay Keep going Anyway in summer 2025 clavicular enters into a content house with a number of other Young male fitness streamers

[00:21:49] The core of their content was around like fitness and working out self-improvement yada yada clavicular sort of stands out As a shock jock within the context of this content house He has a habit of saying the n-word He would just say it to get a reaction out of other people Like there's clips of him like walking into a restaurant and just like saying the n-word and people just kind of like being like what?

[00:22:16] And I don't know that that aspect of his come up is sort of just like pathetic and desperate to me Pathetic and desperate yes Effective My first ever hit tweet was like omegle racism have y'all ever seen like the omegle racist stuff? Yes Omegle for those who may not know in the uh who are listening Is like a chat app thing where people just will randomly talk to other random people online

[00:22:43] And uh, it's a very white thing And so if you are a person of color of any sort you are going to get called slurs as soon as you it becomes apparent that you're a person of color And it's always by children That's for a lot of reasons But one thing I pointed out is that for white people Racism is a bonding practice It's it's one of the ways in which racism is allowed to and white supremacy is allowed to reproduce itself so effectively

[00:23:10] Um, it's because the other is so thoroughly dehumanized over the course of their lives if they're not forced to engage with People of color at an early age and this is this thing can be said for queer people for immigrants For religious minorities, etc. Then you get to kind of develop this like casual dehumanization of Who they are and what they go through The most one of the most like famous abhorrent examples was the george george floyd challenge

[00:23:37] When after that story went viral and people were seeing the videos of it There are white people as a joke reenacting the murder of george floyd and like taking pictures of themselves while standing on someone else's neck I bring all this up because Historically young white men have found an easy way to get attention is through taboo And there's few more taboo terms or things they can do then drop racial slurs against black people and make and make that type of comedy

[00:24:06] I said obviously offensive But I I find myself being dispassionate about it because it it's almost disconnected from the actual traditional uses of the term It's just to bring attention to themselves and it works partially in part because Of how offensive it is, you know, uh him doing that is exactly You know, you know join the join the choir essentially not join the choir. What's the phrase? You get it. It's like I hate to always bring him up

[00:24:36] But this is what jeffree star was doing on myspace in 2005 Yeah, literally the exact same thing. He was running around the streets of la screaming slurs at unhoused people on the streets and getting Boots online because of that. So it's like it's a tried and true engagement strategy For like young disaffected white men and the other thing this reminds me of is um last year

[00:25:01] I interviewed this young man named steven ime who is a former looks maxer and he's a young black college student And he told me like he was really into looks maxing same age as brayden But he got the unfortunate reckoning with the fact that the community was so racist He would make content and then he would be Confronted with this reality that like he was never going to be considered

[00:25:26] A like true looks maxer because he's black and so that was his moment of like it pierced the veil of cognitive dissonance And he was like this is this can't work for me But for someone like brayden he's getting validation by doing this like the racism is cooked into The recipe of what looks maxing is As kat alluded to earlier The concept of beauty in a western sense is intrinsically tied to white supremacy

[00:25:55] When you go and you look at how you know old western philosophy Um figures talked about beauty and aesthetics It was you know, I don't think they were thinking specifically about racial hierarchy at the time But they were creating the building blocks of it totally I mean to your point fd the parasocial bonding experience He was exercising online with a lot of like young white men Worked clavicular blows up on kick in the fall of 2025

[00:26:22] Like this is all super recent how quickly this all happened He became one of kicks top streamers Sidebar if you don't know what kick is It is a sort of right-wing aligned version of twitch It was created by the same men who founded stake A gambling website that a lot of top influencers promote for some Ungodly and soulless reason The people who made stake made kick after twitch

[00:26:50] Banned advertising from gambling websites like stake So kick became a vessel to advertise stake And attracted content creators to the platform with a generous 95 to 5 percent split of subscription revenue Which is basically unheard of Clavicular begins making up to hundreds of thousands of dollars a month He became known for streaming constantly sometimes for hours sometimes for days at a time

[00:27:19] He moves to miami He becomes known too for like viral stunts like he injected his then 17 year old girlfriend with fat dissolving peptides in her face to reshape her jaw Hello hello editing matt here and I had to insert this point that Between the time we recorded this episode and when we are uploading it the teenager we just described whose name is alexandra mendoza who's now 18

[00:27:47] Has filed a lawsuit against clavicular alleging sexual battery saying that Clavicular gave her too much alcohol to the point where she could not consent to sex as well as an unauthorized injection of a non-fda approved drug During the live stream as we just explained to you so So there is that He like I said was advocating for the pseudoscientific practices like bone smashing

[00:28:16] His usage of testosterone peptides glp-1s crystal meth, etc, etc, etc The content itself Have you guys ever seen clavicular's content? Mainly just through clips Only in clips from other people Just through the clipping economy And there is a big clipping economy Basically people who take like one to two minute clips of Clavicular's hours long streams Disseminate them on places like twitter Clavicular's live streams if you've never seen them

[00:28:44] They are sort of like a cartoonish depiction of like a miami high roller He is always either in his mansion Which I believe he's now living in the mansion that was previously Home to the bop house the young only fans girls Miami is a crazy place But he's always either in the house on a boat or in a nightclub He's usually surrounded by other looks maxing influencers

[00:29:12] Young men in tank tops, which I am wearing today I Call that I don't know fruity maxing You know, they all they all have a look like astoundingly wide jaws He's also usually flanked by young women who all look like tana mojo Gotta google who that is Is that gonna make my my history look weird? No, she's at this point given the circus of influencers we're describing

[00:29:40] She's kind of just like a normie at this point I do now have trouble i'll see advertisements for like energy drinks and i'll be like I literally cannot tell if this is a if this is tana mojo Or if this is a woman who just looks has made her face look exactly like tana mojo Clavicular is oftentimes taking some sort of drug put a pin in that And struggles through daily social interactions He struggles through talking to women at the club. He struggles talking to other men

[00:30:06] Like I said, I think an under discussed part of the whole clavicular spectacle is his neurodivergence I don't want to you know blow my talking points about the media aspect But I think it's very purposeful that the mainstream media is not engaging with not just that aspect But all the other parts of what undergirds what he's doing, you know and how it's working so well for him

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[00:32:21] Why is he doing any of this and i've boiled that worldview down to the best of my ability and it is this The only two things that matter most in life are how much money you have and how you look These are the two main variables that will determine one's success happiness and opportunities professionally and romantically Because class ascendance is virtually impossible. You might as well do everything you can to ascend your looks by any means necessary

[00:32:50] What I always say is um, you know looks maxing is just another version of self-improvement Yeah, and i'm simply stating that in terms of ascending your sexual market value Which means you know how valued you are? Yeah By women how easily you're going to succeed in the dating market It's a lot easier to improve your looks Uh and improve your smv by that metric than it is to overcome

[00:33:17] You know certain disparities with your finances or improving your status And i want to point out here that like the more of his content you watch the more you realize it's just a rather extreme and male-oriented version Of content we've all been very familiar with for a long time the most prevalent and normalized version of this content could be diet and nutrition influencers who teach people how to quote-unquote live their best life

[00:33:43] Like for decades oprah has made weight loss content and she's promoted weight watchers She's promoted glp ones using her own weight loss journey as testimony dr. Oz dr. Oz dr. Phil All of the fake tv doctors with expired licenses now members of our federal administration governing who gets health care rfk You know the biggest loser one of the most popular reality competition shows in american history

[00:34:10] Which I think has very comparable messaging to claviculars content and is similarly deranged There's a broader worldview to claviculars content But people mostly fixate on his looks maxing methods and they always present it as like this crazy thing an influencer is doing with zero cultural precedent Whereas I think it comes from a very similar place to content where we've all been familiar with for a very long time

[00:34:35] This is part of a pattern. I see a lot in culture where men start experiencing something that women have been experiencing forever And it's treated as like a wholly unique phenomenon, which it's not I think there's a lot to gain from understanding clavicular and his career and his popularity through the lens of eating disorders Which i'm teeing cat up because this is her sweet spot This is not an unprecedented phenomenon at all

[00:35:00] This is the logical conclusion of our entire culture around beauty And there's this amazing book that I have behind me called pixel flesh by ellen atlanta That is geared toward women and like strictly is about women's experiences But it applies so well here too Because this idea that we feed young people which is that like your worth is inherent It doesn't matter how you look like what people value is your kindness your trustworthiness

[00:35:30] Your relationship building your honesty your integrity none of that pans out in the real adult world It is literally the opposite So when we tell young people that your looks don't matter We are lying to them because the truth is your looks matter quite a lot You are less likely to face discrimination bullying you're likely to get better opportunities economically

[00:35:55] Personally professionally professionally people in everyday interactions will treat you better You're more likely to get an apartment. You're more likely to get a job All of that does stem from appearance in real life So these young people's attitudes about the world are not unhinged from reality They are a direct reflection of like the world we have built for them And we cannot solve these problems by just telling people to like raise their self-esteem or get therapy

[00:36:25] Because they're reacting to like the real structural inequalities around beauty standards that are enforced very violently Clock it This is the thing that drives me crazy Is that people are like why would someone do this because this is the world that you've created His worldview I mentioned is that the two I mean it's too extreme, right?

[00:36:52] He says the only two things that matter are appearance and money That's not true And there's and I want to flesh out why that's not true And it's especially not true in the romantic sense by the way And that's also the part where he leans in heavily which I disagree with But this idea that like you aren't treated differently based on how you look is also not true And so much of the critique of clavicular refuses to engage with the reality that he and millions of his followers are responding to

[00:37:21] And i'm like if we can't do that We're just we're just like pointing and laughing and doing nothing to solve the problem I don't know am I wrong? No, no, no You're right. I wanted to add you something you said trigger me It's not why would someone do that? It's why would a straight man do that? I think that's a big key here because I think you alluded to earlier That women have been operating with the same ostensibly

[00:37:47] Depending on perspective extreme beauty maintenance industry industrial complex, maybe even Forever and men have had plenty of like things about wanting to look good You know, I grew up watching hair club for men commercials. That was a well-known thing I would see I can't remember the last time I wasn't marketed erection pills Since I was a young man, you know, so there's a lot to it

[00:38:16] There's actually maybe in that you can maybe like chime in on this This is actually like a kind of a back-end queer phobic framework that we're dealing with It's like they're basically telling them well, you know, you're straight So why do you care so much about looking good? A normal guy wouldn't act like this, etc. I think in a weird way he's querying how that presents the world by pulling all these straight men into it The media people are basically are like it's really like as i'm thinking about it

[00:38:45] They're basically being like dude. This is gay. Why are you doing this? Yes Yes A hundred percent Nobody's having a real conversation about the problem Well, so I have to say this whole thing of like a man is doing all these weight loss techniques And taking steroids and injecting his face with things I'm like no one fixated on this story has been to a gay club in a while

[00:39:13] Because the things that these people are doing It also makes me think about how like you get similar coverage for like the new trendy Oftentimes it's just kind of an illusion But like you get this sort of coverage for things that like kim kardashian for example does like When vampire facials became a thing It's like they're literally pulling blood out of your face and then like oh, I do remember that like pushing like massaging you with your own blood

[00:39:41] To like theoretically regenerate your cells or whatever and like the bbl craze itself I feel like also reminds me of this but for years when you talk about the procedures that women do to themselves It's it's similar in that there's a lot of like judgment around that narrative What's less questioned is the underlying assumption that like women should be doing upkeep to our appearances Like women should be like caring so much about what we look like like that is like the natural order of things When men do it

[00:40:10] That's the question of is like why do men need to care about these things? And it reminds me of the cultural discourse from a couple decades ago around like the metrosexual man Which is a Is this late capitalism metrosexual discourse? I think so I think that's what this is That just brings me back to my childhood I probably told this story before on the show But I remember like going as a kid to buy shoes with my mom at dsw And I picked up a pair of like red converse or something and she was like

[00:40:40] Aren't those a little metro? Like i'm so traumatized by that word and then fast forward a few years and I was like there's not metro i'm just gay It's like and like for those who don't remember this discourse like my remembrance of like the metrosexual discourse was basically like Straight men are investing in personal hygiene clothes that match and they're even like doing like we like they're buying products for their faces Like what's going on?

[00:41:10] But they're not gay then why would they do this? What's funny is that's also like a recurring thing through history there's a twitter thread where a guy is like marking Every like decade there's like an article like are men manly anymore? And it like goes from 2010 to 1910 And it keeps happening over and over again because masculinity has always been a perilous framework with through which to try to organize society

[00:41:39] While we're on the topic of eating disorders I just want to add a sort of like a funny sidebar that there is basically a woman's version of clavicular whose name is live schmidt We don't have time to get really deep into live schmidt today She is like the head like influencer on sort of like the extreme part of like eating disorder tiktok She is a very small white woman formerly I think like a signed model

[00:42:04] But now just she sells like a community oriented course of like of like how to develop like anorexia Essentially is what it is. Is that is that right? Would you say like she and clavicular are two sides of the same coin to a ridiculous degree? She has the exact same worldview and her worldview is also like you need to be as thin as possible And that is the way that you will gain like success and opportunities It's also a grift much in the same way that I think what clavicular is doing is like

[00:42:33] Grifting in the sense that like her own opportunities are astroturfed. It's like a snake eating itself It's like she needs to pretend that she's ultra successful in order to sell courses To other like women and girls and then by making money off of the grifting course She can actually like stage things in her life that make her appear very very successful So it's all kind of an illusion But both of them sell these like courses just to men versus women

[00:43:01] And the live schmidt courses are literally like pay me, you know x amount of money a month And I will tell you to eat 400 calories a day and like here's how you're gonna do it And the funny thing about clavicular and live schmidt is that they are essentially the same person and they are also beefing Now we're getting to the fun part No, it is so funny. There are clips. I'm gonna throw one in here if I can find it

[00:43:29] But like live schmidt has gone on clavicular stream and clavicular accuses live schmidt essentially of like Grifting of selling her own followers bad advice and it's very funny because it's like the spider-man meme pointing at each other I'm like, that's you Can you just like be nice? Like let's just get through this. Let's just be done I'm being kind to you on the screen and like you're just like Well over here being rude and making passive-aggressive comments Why would I be nice to someone who's intentionally scamming? How am I scamming? I'm being nice

[00:43:56] You're giving them improper advice that you're selling for thousands of dollars Meanwhile, you have no idea what you're talking about So don't ask me to be nice. I'm simply putting you on the spot that you are not an expert in any of this stuff You are simply I've always done it off my advice No, no, you're you're leading women Uh completely astray by lying to them by putting on a front that you're being nice It's like no you're just ignorant to any way that they could actually ascend and improve their life

[00:44:26] And if you didn't know like if it was totally divorced from the context of who clavicular is you'd be like wait He has a point because he's like live you're scamming them. You don't know their bodies everyone It doesn't even work and then you're like wow, he's making a point and then you go look at what he's selling It's the exact same thing Yeah, yeah We should certainly touch on the overtly misogynistic elements of clavicular's worldview

[00:44:51] He subscribes to and is driven by something i've talked with you on this podcast about fd the sexual marketplace value theory or smv Which is uh an incel derived theory that all people have a numeric value in the dating marketplace One through ten primarily determined by money and appearance He believes women are hypergamous perhaps more hypergamous than ever

[00:45:18] Meaning they are exclusively drawn to men above their own rank Which is why it's important as men to reach those top ranks lest you never get a girlfriend I mean I think with clavicular being the topic in particular it is important to acknowledge the role that desirability and socioeconomic status has in your

[00:45:43] Um ability to find love in this country. We live in a capitalist white supremacist nation so the more capital and the closer you your proximity to whiteness the better off for you in most cases in Most cases there are plenty of exceptions, but they wouldn't describe it as that they this you know According to the incel gods um our lord and savior elliot roger as they would probably say It's just because women are innately evil and illogical at the same time

[00:46:12] The funniest thing that always bonds me about this type of rhetoric and these conversations Is that these? Guys don't ever have girlfriends They never have girlfriends. They've never had wives. They've never had functional relationships They've never you know been in love even possibly a lot of them um, so it's always like the blind leading the blind Um, which is what makes it possible because like if I also have never had any romantic

[00:46:42] anything Then how would I know that this person is grifting me in line? It's dunning-kruger effect if you don't know enough to know what's nonsense You'll go wholeheartedly into that nonsense Like this whole worldview around dating and relationships is immediately shattered once you spend 10 minutes in a normal real world setting If you just go to like a mall or an amusement park or a restaurant in any like normal place

[00:47:09] You will and look around you and look at the people who are in relationships and look at the families and look at the couples It's obvious that none of this is true With clavicular you could genuinely make the case that this 20 year old barely operates in the real world Like we know from the age of 14 He was spending all of his time for the most part in extreme isolation on these like extremist online platforms And then the second that he like reaches adulthood or like, you know shortly after he reaches adulthood

[00:47:35] He's now basically shuttled around from like one influencer space to the other He doesn't spend time in like the real miami. He goes to these like influencer houses He really lives in this like surreal hyper reality Where maybe the illusion that all of the stuff he believes in is not true for the vast majority of people

[00:47:55] Maybe that spell is not being broken for him. Yeah, and he will very openly and harshly judge women's appearances in a way that is obviously misogynistic though. I will say He's kind of a rare bird in the sense that he is almost if not equally critical of men's appearances Which I think is actually relevant because it speaks to a deeply

[00:48:21] homoerotic element of the whole looks maxing community and its obsession with like men surveilling other men Yeah, I find his his nature to be queer in a way if that makes sense. Oh say more I don't I don't know who want to say more because I don't know how I feel about that take Clavicular more like queer vicular It's like the famous quote and now i'm forgetting who who it's from but it's the man loving quote

[00:48:47] Matt, you know what i'm talking about. I do know what you're talking about which is basically that like heterosexuality like for men is ultimately man loving because I can't articulate it. Well, well, it's basically just the idea that like and you see this so clearly in like the clavicular Model of like how he evaluates men and women which is like ultimately it's in the pursuit of like

[00:49:13] The ultimate male form which includes being surrounded by women who love and admire you because of how like structured your face is But like his obsession his aesthetic obsession his values his judgments they revolve around other men Like he's obsessed with the male form more than anything else And so in that sense his whole ideology is very very male loving

[00:49:37] And another interesting thing that doesn't apply so much to clavicular but like just in general the manosphere is obviously very misogynistic It's all like rooted and threaded through with misogyny So is this like beauty standard culture for women? It's also very misogynistic in the online pro eating disorder pro self-harm spaces that i've reported on Women are oftentimes expressing feelings of like hatred at themselves

[00:50:02] Like this self-harm component is very like an expression of internalized misogyny So it's interesting that like throughout this whole culture on both sides of like the gender split The two things at the bottom that unite it all are racism and misogyny and like that is the foundation of this whole culture Are you all familiar with yaoi? Oh, yeah So that the fact that that's the one person is like no Wait, you know It's gay You know what yaoi is, Matt It's not even is yaoi gay?

[00:50:32] Cause like Yaoi? Yaoi How do you spell this? Y-A-O-I It's erotic It's gay erotic manga Oh And or romance I'm looking at the pictures This looks These I don't know this looks nice Yeah, so I'm bringing it up because Or no, is that not good? Well, I mean it depends on I'm not gonna say whether it's good or not Because I've heard a lot of arguments Yaoi does have some issues with it in that

[00:51:02] And the reason I bring it up for clavicular Yaoi is on the surface no ostensibly queer But it's done in a way clearly to appeal to straight women And so it doesn't really humanize queerness As much as it's just a fetishization of male power and aesthetics And all the yaoi guys look like clavicular Like you won't get too far into any one of them

[00:51:29] To find at least one of the characters will look like clavicular I just, there's something to that I don't, I haven't I'm not quite fruity enough myself to really To really dig into this But I really think there's a there there That I'm, look up I shout out to whichever queer creator Is going to do the queering clavicular video But there is a clear Queer Upheaval of traditional masculinity To allow him to do this very male centered Very Greek

[00:51:58] Like the Greeks and the Romans Were notoriously had same sex lovers It wasn't queer though, right? It was about power It was an extension of masculinity That they would have male lovers too And so that's kind of what I'm getting at It might not surprise you to learn That as clavicular blew up He was quickly absorbed into the mainstream manosphere With people like Andrew Tate Sneeko, Myron Gaines Nick Fuentes and the like

[00:52:25] Despite not identifying as a political streamer himself His penchant for misogyny Obsession with male hierarchies And willingness to say outrageous things Made him a natural fit regardless I will say clavicular never had the same relationships To overt politics As a lot of these figures During an interview with conservative podcaster Michael Knowles Clavicular said that he would vote for Gavin Newsom Over J.D. Vance If those were the two 2028 candidates

[00:52:55] Because Newsom Moggs Vance Next election cycle Who's going to win? It's going to be Gavin Newsom Against J.D. Vance Because J.D. Vance is subhuman And Gavin Newsom-Mogg's J.D. Vance is subhuman? Yeah What makes you say that? Uh He's got a very short Total facial width to height ratio He's obese Uh Very recessed side profile Whereas Newsom is like 6'3 Chad

[00:53:22] His relationship to the overtly political manosphere Peaked in January 2026 When he and all of the figures I just listed Went out to a Miami nightclub together Requested the DJ play H.H. Or Heil Hitler By Kanye West And sang along to it After which the Miami mayor Released a statement condemning it Uh Clavicular then met With several Jewish nightclub owners And posted a photo with them On Instagram

[00:53:51] With the caption No more politics Just mogging Which is an awesome quote It is It is That's gonna be someone else's High school yearbook quote No more politics Just mogging Oh I kind of love that This is also like This is what I mean When I'm like There's a hyper reality To like Clavicular's life It's a Tim and Eric skit Yes And like the way that he exists

[00:54:21] In Miami at times Like I'm like This is not real life This is not like Real Miami These are like These bizarre Groups of men Who are on camera It's like reality TV It's staged For the purpose Of online performance And they're all Kind of melting their brains By doing it And not engaging With reality Yeah Also if you've felt lost At any point My dear listener I want to establish A few key terms Probably should have done this earlier But mogging

[00:54:51] Going full boomer Mogging is It's like Outshining someone And it can be A suffix On any word Status Mogging Looks mogging Money mogging Maxing Is doing something To the extreme Which can also be A suffix on anything Like looks maxing Well actually I think I have to I have to correct you I have to correct you I'm gonna I'm gonna Language mog you Really quick Definition mog

[00:55:20] Okay please Please Please It's important The caveat Is that maxing Isn't to the extreme Is to the Greatest possible Extent Of the individual And And that's Where you get Like gesture maxing I remember When I first heard This with trans maxing A couple of years ago Did y'all hear about that one With incels Like being as trans As possible Yeah so One of the things That the incel community Which is also very artistic Autistic Artistic

[00:55:50] Godly I'm Opposite of mogging With language now There was like a whole It went viral Like a Post within their world Basically saying If you're A Slim wrist Scrawny Short male You actually Can Trans max To be A mid tier Female Essentially what They were saying That if you were If you had The concept of like Trans friendly Looks maxers I live No it is Well friendly

[00:56:20] Is a It can do a lot Of work there But like yeah They were They were basically Like look If you are Too ugly as a guy You may actually Have a chance As a woman But that's where I first learned The framework Of maxing To be An individual Journey Sorry Thank you for Intellect maxing Me Or intellect Mogging Me Fuck This has Convinced me More than Anything else That euphoria Creator Sam Levinson Must be an

[00:56:50] Incel Oh yeah Oh yeah I knew Kat Was gonna find A way to Complain about Sam Levinson In here Somehow All of this Seems to track With whatever The ideology Of euphoria Is as well Do you guys Mind if I pee Really really fast No go for it That's fine I'm actually Gonna join you Well Whatever We're bathroom Maxing Be right back Just wanted to

[00:57:20] Take a quick Break From the show To give a Shout out To Rocket Money For sponsoring Today's episode It's getting Warmer out Spring Is edging Us And you know What that Means Spending Probably a Little more Money Maybe it Doesn't Maybe it Doesn't For you Maybe you're Extremely Fiscally Responsible But for The rest Of us I know That it Is a common Thing as It gets Warmer out As you're Going out More Treats And things Start popping Out at You And you Just can't Hold yourself Back from Them Then spend

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[00:58:49] If You Would Like To Try Rocket Money Today You Can Head Over To Rocket Money Dot Com Slash Fruity That Is Rocket Money Dot Com Slash Fruity Thanks So Much And Now Let's Get Back To The Show Matt's Back Already I Got Piss Mogged And You See Why This

[00:59:19] Is Attractive It's Because It's A Meme It's So Easily Meme It's Fine I Said Of The Argument That Black Women And Black Queer People Are The Like Originators Of All Internet Culture But The Incels And The Four Channers They Might Be Second Low Key There's A Handful Of Things They've Done That I Have To Say They Cooked With If Not For Just The Comedic Utility Unfortunately it's Usually Related To

[00:59:51] Reclaim I Would Like To Reclaim Mogging That's The Overview Of Clavicula's Rise And The Negative Effect He Has On Young Men I Think We've Done That Up To This Point But Then I Watched The Media's Coverage Of Him Most Of Which Comes Across As Belligerently Unwilling To Engage At All

[01:00:21] In The World That Produced Clavicular And Clavicular Interviews And I Pulled A Clip For Us To Talk About I Want To Start With A Clip From Clavicular's Interview With Adam Friedland Which

[01:01:06] Good Job No Doctors You Know All This Stuff Do Doctors Agree With The Stuff You're Saying Right Now Doctors Are You're Rogue I'm Telling You Listen To These People Are Literally Going To School For Ten Years Accumulating A Amount Of Debt Just

[01:01:37] Like I Have Something To Say I'm Ready To Hear It It Is Very Hard To Acknowledge Any Level Of Rationality Within The Things Clavicular Says Without It Coming Across As An Endorsement Of His Whole Shtick I'm Aware Of

[01:02:07] Boys And Girls By The Way He Has A Large Audience Across The Gender Spectrum I Don't Know If There Are A Lot Of Non-binary Clavicular Fans Who Have Real Feelings About The World That This Type Of Rhetoric Is Tapping Into And I Practices And

[01:02:37] How A Lot Of Doctors In Places Like New York City Just Helped Elect Zoran Mamdani Because Increasingly Doctors Who We've Always Thought Are The Epitome Of You You Own Your Own Practice You Have Freedom You Aren't Part Of The Working Class If You're A Doctor But Guess What When Private Equity Firms Start Buying Up Your Practices And Turning You Into An Employee With Strict Quotas Of How Many Patients You Have To See And How Long You Can Spend With Each One

[01:03:07] Well Now Doctors Are Increasingly Identifying As Workers So I Think The Class Analysis Here Is Really Interesting I Was Just About To Say This Is A Perverted Materialist Analysis He Is Giving To Us Exactly Because What Strikes Me About Clavicular Is He Often Correctly Identifies The Problems Facing His Generation But Offers Obviously Horrible Solutions But My Problem Though Is That The Mainstream Media Coverage Of Him Which Adam

[01:03:36] Freeland Is Not Exactly Mainstream Media Coverage And So I'm Not Even Referring To This Interview But A Lot Of The Coverage Can't Even Concede That He's Tapping Into Real Generational Despair Yes You Know Yes Yeah So The Media The General Is To Be A Function Of The Algorithms

[01:04:09] Function They Function For The Purpose Of Manufacturing Consent Even When You Want To Be Transgressive Or Radical Whatever Then It's Like Okay But How Can We Atomize You As Much As Possible How Can We Create Rage Cycles With You And Your Audience How Can We Make Sure That You're Fighting With Hassan Or You Know Insert Other Figure Here Instead Of Actually You Know Building Power And I Say For The Still Very Mainstream Media Which Is Not Being Watched By Us As

[01:04:39] Millennials Which Is Only Being Watched By Boomers And Older For Them It's To Reaffirm This Image Of Young People's Despair That Don't Want To Show Early For Work And Don't Want To Work Hard Like We Did During The Good Old Days When Men Were Men And Didn't Bone Smash And So It Doesn't Surprise Me That You're Describing The Media As Treating It They Did This To

[01:05:08] PewDiePie Ten Years Now It's Mainstream News But What It Comes Down To Is They Can't Engage With Him Critically Because That Would Mean Engaging With Everything Critically You know And Their Viewers Don't Want To Hear That A Hundred Percent When I First Started Reporting On

[01:05:38] Influencers It Was Around The Time That Studies Were Coming Out Like Surveys Showing That A Huge Percentage Of Gen Z And Now Gen Alpha Their Dream Job Was Influencer And A lot Of The Adults In The Room Reacted To This By Saying This Generation Is So Self-centered So Selfish The Idea Was That

[01:06:11] People When The Reality Is The Reason That Young People Want To Be Influencers Is Because They See That It Is One Of The Only Pathways To Actually Like Moving Upwards In Class It

[01:06:41] They Even Got Master's Degrees They Even Got PhDs And Then They Were Ejected Into A Job Market Where There Were No Roles For Them And They Have To Work Regular Working Class Jobs Just To Try To Survive And Pay Back Those Loans And We Hear About This All The Time The Younger Generations So Of Of Of Of Of Of Of The Mainstream Media Despite Questioning This Has Broadcast To Us Which

[01:07:11] Is Like Oh My Gosh All These Young People Don't Even Have To Work Hard And Just Make Millions Of Certainly Honestly And the sad reality is that that's not true either. Influencing is also not a pathway to guaranteed or like lazy forms of success. But that's like the new generational fallacy. And young people like feeling this way is not crazy. It is informed by like what actually happened to the generation before us.

[01:07:37] Yes, 100 million percent. It's the new American dream. And I want to take the pin out of that conference, that leadership conference that I mentioned at the very beginning of the episode that I was at with all of these people who are older than me and very few of whom spend a good amount of time on the Internet. And a lot of them worked in tech and a lot of them work in AI.

[01:07:59] And I can tell you, and I was so excited to record a podcast where I could like tell people this, that by the way, guys, when it comes to the future and securing a future that has job stability for young people, the emperor has no clothes.

[01:08:15] All of these people will say, yes, you know, it's going to change up the job market. But young people understand AI and young people will know how to turn this into new job categories. They have no plan. And we already know that AI is eating the bottom rung of jobs in all of these different industries, leaving young people no path to enter those industries to begin with.

[01:08:40] And young people, while they might not be able to articulate the very nature of all of this, they know that those opportunities are gone. That is where this nihilism comes from. They know about AI. They know the future that has been guaranteed to young people for the past several decades with college leading to jobs, etc. is gone.

[01:09:01] So when Clavicular says, why take out all these student loans when I can just be an influencer? Well, you can laugh at him all you want. But guess who else feels that way? Basically everyone his age and younger. Yep. Yeah. So I'm an older Malina. I'm 43. Right? I'll be 44 in about a month. You know, I'm of like the last past the post in terms of like, hey, all these structures that we raised you all on and set up for you guys, they actually work.

[01:09:29] And like literally I crossed the finish line just before they all became completely dysfunctional. They were kind of breaking down when I got there, but it was just halfway functional enough that I could make something out of myself without ever becoming an influencer. Right? But you have to be reminded, as Kat kind of alluded to, that the rest of these kids, the younger millennials and now the Z's and eventually the alphas, they're like, this is bullshit. What are you talking about?

[01:09:57] What do you mean work hard, get a job? Like you? Yeah. Yeah. They know it's a joke. Ironically, I have found like in my years of like working for various mainstream media companies within the media ranks, I think that there is this sort of like resentment toward influencers because I think a lot of people working for the mainstream media actually blame the symptoms to be the cause.

[01:10:23] Like mainstream journalists, that job market has never been great. And now it is literally like it is the last remaining people who are about to be pushed off of a cliff. And I think a lot of journalists feel like influencers took our jobs. And so a lot of the coverage of influencers and of social media platforms is very resentful and very angry and very like they want to stick it to them. They want to humiliate influencers. They want to like knock influencers down a peg.

[01:10:51] But unfortunately, like now it's reaching a really interesting point in like journalism culture because so many journalists are influencers now. Right. They got to get that sub stack popping. Exactly. Many of the journalists who are still at these major publications are like clinging to that idea that like influencers are the enemy instead of the reality, which is like our economic mode of capitalism has failed.

[01:11:16] We are like all plunging into an abyss together and like taking shots at like someone else who's just trying to like survive and thrive is not going to help anybody. That's how I feel watching a lot of this coverage. Speaking of which, Clavicular did an extremely viral interview with a notably handsome interviewer for 60 Minutes Australia.

[01:11:39] The interview is about an hour long, focuses heavily on Clavicular's looks maxing tactics, particularly bone smashing. And the interviewer is smirking, borderline laughing through the whole thing. And look, on one hand, I can understand why, but it all just comes across to me as extremely incurious. And for a serious journalistic outlet like 60 Minutes to be taking this approach struck me as just like not doing your job.

[01:12:10] Are you mugging me right now? In what metric? Any? Status mugging. What do you mean by that? I mean, like I might be status mugging you maybe. I don't know. You're fine. Like potentially money mugging. Who's to say, right? I just I don't know. But like, you know, those are different types of mogs that you could achieve on someone.

[01:12:38] It doesn't only pertain to looks, right? So there's all types of mogs. Well, your whole persona and shtick is about appearance and looks, right? So would you say your look's mugging me right now? Um, I can't really can't really see you to be fair. It's kind of hard with the light. Camera's quite far away. Yeah. So I'll just give it to you. Really?

[01:13:10] Yeah. I mean, I can't see. Why did they leave this in? That the whole interview is like that. Also, it's he's saying I can't see you super well because they're not in the same room. And he's looking at a laptop screen of this guy that's far away and the light is in his face. Yeah. And even still, it strikes me. God, like these fucking bad interviewers have turned me into a clavicular defender. It's so void of substance. And like I said, all of all of these interviews are like, do you think you're hotter than me?

[01:13:39] I'm like, you're 60 minutes. Clavicular clavicular is like 20 and like, you know, doing some crazy shit. But like, what's your excuse? It's really interesting to me that clavicular almost sounds like a resigned college professor explaining to a freshman student, like what you think is not accurate. I'm trying to explain to you the basis of my culture. And you're just sitting here asking me on serious questions. Which I actually appreciate.

[01:14:07] Like, I appreciate the farce in it all to an extent. I often don't get to see straight white men like try to explain the nuances of a culture. So I'm just training my man to get frustrated. That was novel. But yeah, it's very breathy. And just like somebody on TikTok needs to just do what's an animatic of that as Yowie. Because that is how Yowie goes.

[01:14:37] That's how it goes. It's a Yuki and Simi. Yuki and Simi. There's two like roles of dominance. The unseriousness of it just leads me to continue down that path. Clavicular is like the Connor story. And the interviewer is like the Hudson Williams. If this was heated rivalry. This is not where I thought this was going.

[01:15:01] And like, okay, another critique of this that I often have of how like mainstream media covers influencers is like the content that is being created, whether it's a 60 minutes episode or like a 60 minute long YouTube video. They are competing in the same environments for the same theoretically like audience pool. And a lot of times like mainstream media is subjected to the exact same dynamics that online content creators are.

[01:15:27] And we talk about this with online content, like how striving for virality tends to flatten things because you are going to get more attention with like a quick snappy clip out of context than with a lengthy nuanced discussion that actually like probes systemic factors. And we criticize like viral content and social media content for these dynamics. But the exact same dynamics also exist in mainstream media where there is more value to creating a clip.

[01:15:56] You're going to get more viewers. You're going to go more viral if you have a clip of an interviewer asking clavicular, are you mogging me right now? Than if you have an interviewer asking clavicular about like generational despair and economic anxiety. So really these are two people trying to do kind of the same thing. And that becomes very obvious when you have these interactions like this. And to that end, the interviewer then asks clavicular if he believes what he says.

[01:16:26] And this is how it goes. It's fascinating talking to you. I feel like you're a very different person face to face than the persona you give out online. Do you believe half the stuff you say? Do I believe half the stuff I say? So what are you saying? I'm inauthentic?

[01:16:45] I'm just curious that is a lot of what you say on your videos and online about gaining attention more than necessarily it being what you truly believe? In terms of streaming, yeah. Like a lot of the activities that I do, like, you know, clubbing every day, you know, doing certain activities like that.

[01:17:13] Is that something I would do if I wasn't a content creator? No. So that part is, I guess you could say, just for reality. You know, I'm a pretty sheltered person. I, you know, like to spend time to myself ideally. Uh, so all those experiences where I'm going out and about talking to people, yeah, maybe that's not the most real version of myself.

[01:17:37] But everything I talk about in regards to looks maxing in my philosophy, that's 100% real. What an earnest response about how he is performing for cameras because he believes that that's all he can do. And to a certain extent, like, I don't know, is he wrong? No. Well, to Clavicula's point, which is something I never thought I would say.

[01:18:05] The reaction online to this interview that I saw, the viral reaction to this interview. Don't, don't, don't. We're going to get to it. We're going to get to it. We're going to get to it. My lips are sealed. Let's watch another clip. The interviewer then says that he thinks personality and character matter more than appearance.

[01:18:24] See now, I would disagree and make the argument, Clav, that character, personality, maturity, intelligence are far more important than appearance. Do you think I'm wrong? Well, bingo. There it is. But those are all perceived entirely differently, once again, based on your looks. So you're absolutely correct.

[01:18:53] You're just forgetting that key piece of nuance that is kind of the reason that my message resonates so well. So what is reaction to that? Because he's not lying. He just laughs and moves on to the next question. But it's so amazing to me because, like, if you go to the YouTube video of this interview that 60 Minutes Australia posted, everyone is like, it's so funny watching this interviewer slowly realize Clavicular is insane. I'm like, where?

[01:19:22] I hate, I hate, like, it's, people are going to be like, oh, you're defending, no, no, no, no. But it's like. Oh, man. Is Clavicular the leftist prince that was promised? You just don't realize it? He's not. He's obviously, I know you're not being serious, but it's like he is correctly identifying the problem. He's giving the wrong solution, but he's identifying the problem. And the interviewer is, like, laughing and just being like, that's not true. It's like, hello, you're a gorgeous man doing an onscreen interview.

[01:19:51] Why do you think that is? Right. Poorly. This is, again, like, this feeds into the nihilism of the young because young people aren't stupid. And, like, you see Donald Trump in office and then you get out of here and you're like, being intelligent and kind is what matters most. Clearly, that's not true.

[01:20:08] It all contributes to the decline in institutional trust because when people sit there and tell you things that so blatantly contradict with reality, like, you hear that enough times and you're just like, oh, all of the institutions are lying to me. Like, this is how I feel like a lot of young people are sort of, like, radicalized into, like, nihilism and then also these extremely toxic subcultures because it feels like someone is finally telling them the truth.

[01:20:36] Even if, like, what is actually being told is this very, like, skewed portrait of reality. But at least it seems to hit on something that, like, the mainstream media is not willing to say. The interviewer persists. But see, I disagree, Claire. I don't think that. I don't think appearance is as important as you're suggesting. Hmm.

[01:20:58] Do you think that if you were bald, if you were fat, that you would be doing this interview, that you would be a journalist? Yeah. Yeah, I do. Well, I would tell you that it's very unlikely that you would have the career that you do if you didn't have, you know, the looks package. You know, that's really what it comes down to.

[01:21:24] Like, you'll see a lot of media personalities with full heads of hair, generally in shape. And that's what it comes down to. See, again, I disagree. Do you not think there are bold, overweight journalists? Of course I do. But I'm just saying you would have had to overcome that disparity by being a lot better in other metrics to have the career that you do. Oh, he's woke maxing right now.

[01:21:54] He's literally just describing lookism, which we know is a real like prejudice based on attract. Like, we know that that's a real thing. If the interviewer was like, had like thought some of this through and actually prepared a thoughtful interview. And I don't mean to like dog on 60 Minutes Australia, but like engage with the reality that this person is living in. Because so is like we all are. And for you to just be like, well, that's not true.

[01:22:23] Who are some of the most successful onscreen male broadcast journalists? Anderson Cooper, David Muir, attractive fit men with full heads of hair and white, by the way, and chiseled jaws. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like it's pretty ridiculous to assert the claim that like tons of people who don't conform to the beauty standard are successful in very visible positions because it's just not reality.

[01:22:49] And while, yes, there are a lot of journalists who don't conform to beauty standards like or aren't conforming in like the highest echelons of beauty standards. Those are not usually the people on camera. Like your pathway in life is going to change based on how people perceive your appearance. This should not be like controversial to say because it's just reflected in like all of the available data and reality that we live in.

[01:23:13] What we're actually witnessing in a surreal way that I wasn't expecting before we started this call is the rejection of clavicular in the process of protecting white supremacy. That's not a sentence I thought I was going to make, but what clavicular is like the white supremacy's greatest trick is maintaining invisibility in society, maintaining imperceptibility. You're not supposed to notice white supremacy.

[01:23:42] In a recent video, I compared it to dark matter and like the universe. I don't know if anybody's like a science nerd, but dark matter is literally what makes up most of the universe, not stars or proton clouds or whatever, but like literal matter you can't see. But when scientists analyzed the math behind the universe, they had to make up the concept of dark matter in order to make the universe function properly.

[01:24:08] So you don't know it's there, but it's the most thing around us. Same thing with white supremacy. What this interviewer would have to engage with is the white and patriarchal nature of how he is privileged in Western society as not just a good looking and not just a man, but a good looking straight white man means that he started from at least four or five notches ahead of all of his would be competitors.

[01:24:38] And it's not a surprise that we've only had straight white male presidents that most of them do not like Donald Trump is anomalous in that he looks like a weird cartoon character figure. Most of them do look like who we talked about earlier that mocks JD Vance. No, Gavin Newsom. Yeah, most of them look like Gavin Newsom. You know, that is not an accidental thing that is structural and systemic.

[01:25:03] And so this looks maxing thing is accidentally kind of materialist in its in this breakdown of like societal forces. And in doing that and then platforming him, they have to completely ignore that part in order to maintain the narrative around, you know, it's a personality that matters and hard work and bootstraps and hustle, et cetera, et cetera.

[01:25:32] And he's like, you know, actually the structural framework of lookism and race means that I can be here talking to you versus a woman or a woman of color, whatever. So it's actually hilarious, you know, to have to be on the other side of this conversation, defending the woke critique of based clavicular Internet kids would say.

[01:25:55] I actually wrote here in my notes, this would be like getting an influencer who advocates for the use of skin lightening cream on for an interview and then being like, well, why would you do that? The world's not racist. It's like, well, neither of you are. What? Like, no, it's it's. And this is the fundamental conservative worldview of clavicular, right? He's saying the world has all of these structures and he's correct. He's correct in identifying them. And he's saying that's just the way it is.

[01:26:21] So you might as well try your hardest to survive and come out on top, lest you be a loser and get left behind. But this interviewer is doing nothing for anybody, least of all the viewer, by ignoring the reality that clavicular is saying we should all just do our best to survive under. Like the leftist critique here is like, yeah, we have a world that values those things and prioritizes attractive people in all sorts of ways. And we should fight against that. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:26:48] This reminds me of a conversation I had with someone online where they were like Demi Moore, the star of The Substance. They were critiquing her thinness and saying like, well, she just starred in a movie that was about how bad beauty standards are. And I'm like, you misunderstood the plot of The Substance. You misunderstood what The Substance was trying to say. The point of The Substance is not just like beauty standards are bad.

[01:27:11] The point of The Substance is that women in the entertainment industry have to conform to impossible standards of beauty or else they will lose economic opportunities. They will be ejected once they surpass a certain age, no matter how well they conformed in their use. And that's what people misunderstand about so much of this culture is like it is inherently conservative because it doesn't want to change these systemic realities.

[01:27:36] But also like we can't deny that those systemic realities exist because to do that would also not solve any of them. It's just pretending the problem isn't real. Somebody just needs to hand this guy a couple of books and we'll see what happens. Yeah. We'll have two Hassans. We could fix clavicular. Wait, you mean clavicular or the journalist? No, clavicular. I think they could both read personally, but no shade.

[01:28:03] The last clip I want to play for you from this interview is at the end when he asks if clavicular is happy. You don't give off this sense that you're incredibly happy and fulfilled. I'm wondering, Clav, do you live a happy, fulfilling life? I would say for the most part I do. I just generally don't want to be doing this right now.

[01:28:33] I had something else I had to do. What am I keeping you from? I wanted to go to a club. Is that your idea of fun, going to the club? Well, I mean, maybe it's not the most enjoyable activity, but it'd certainly be a lot more fun than this. No offense. What does he like to do?

[01:29:01] I mean, it's hard to know what he actually likes to do because he just does whatever he needs to do for his 24-hour streams, which is going out and then going home and then going out and then going home. But it's just so funny as this whole interview unwinds and I watch the full hour and this guy just becomes like Fox News. It's like, oh, really? You want to go to the club? Is that what you think is fun? Like, yeah, he's fucking 20. Yeah. I hate how much I have to, like, fucking advocate for fucking clavicular, but he's 20 years old.

[01:29:31] Of course he wants to go to the club instead of doing this dog shit 60 Minutes interview anyway. Unfortunately, he humor-mogged the interviewer a lot. That was revealing and astounding.

[01:29:48] And I mean, let me just come back to that initial take of, like, the thing that people sometimes missed about Jordan Peterson and really all of the Manosphere folks is that they are responding to the material world in a maladaptive way. Right?

[01:30:04] The reason why these entities are powerful and require us to struggle against them is because they provide community to young men, a more diverse group of young men than people often realize, that are incapable of getting it elsewhere due to the ravages of capitalism and late capitalism.

[01:30:25] To have someone like, beforehand, a Jordan Peterson, who felt like an elder, you know, for a generation where a lot of people were fatherless or inadequate fathering in the home, to, you know, to engage with their emotional cores that are neglected creates connection, which is what everybody's missing. They're missing connection to other people. And so for whatever reason, Clavicular and his lifestyle makes people feel connected.

[01:30:54] If you don't acknowledge why that's possible, you're just kind of making content, you know? That's what this really is. Just content. Exactly. The ad space. Here's where we can take the pin out of what the broad reaction was to this interview, which, Kat, do you want to say? Well, everyone was like, it's so funny that they put Clavicular with this really hot Australian broadcaster. And people were like, he's actually hotter than Clavicular.

[01:31:23] And that was the main takeaway I saw people like take away from this interview was like, actually, the broadcaster is hotter than him. The only tweets I saw with hundreds of thousands of likes were like, oh, I bet Clavicular is shaking in his boots because the interviewer is hotter than him. And I'm like, guess whose worldview you are reinforcing right now? Yep. Jesus. It's very silly to me.

[01:31:48] And like, honestly, like scrolling through any social media platform on any given day will reinforce Clavicular's worldview, which is why he has it. Because if you are a young person who is spending a lot of time on social media, as all people for the most part now are, then of course you're going to walk away with this worldview because that is how people treat you. They make snap judgments based on your appearance. And then that dictates how they respond to anything that comes out of your mouth. Right. Wow, business.

[01:32:16] Around this time, Clavicular also does an interview with Piers Morgan, which is just similarly a joke on the part of Piers Morgan. Here's a clip. I might argue that I'm mogging you right now. Okay, well, you know, that's a fair perspective. Go for it. For those who don't know what I just said, what does mogging mean? Basically outshining someone, looking better than them. And there's different types of mogs, right?

[01:32:45] There's status mogs. There's, you know, money mogs. So, you know, you might have me in those categories, but I think we need to add in a little bit of nuance that it's not a looks mog, you know? You would say that you have the edge over me in looks mogging? I think I might have you by just a small margin. I don't know. But that could be attributed to youth, you know? Yeah, but youth isn't always everything. Who knows? Back in the day. Youth.

[01:33:11] A lot of women find the older dude more appealing than the young pimply youth, you know? Well, you know, absolutely. Can I just say? This is farcical. Clavicular could not have been nicer in this situation where Piers Morgan is like, oh, do you think you'll look smogging me? And Clavicular in that situation could have- That was a good impression, Matt.

[01:33:38] He could have literally said anything and Clavicular was like, maybe by just a hair, but also I have youth on my side. And then Piers responds by calling him pimply? What? This is content, though. This is content. It is. And I also think that Piers Morgan and Clavicular are speaking the exact same language. When Piers Morgan says a lot of women actually find older guys more appealing.

[01:34:06] Notice he says appealing and not attractive. Because what does Piers Morgan think that women find more appealing about older men? The fact that they tend to have more money and more power and more status. And ultimately, this very misogynistic worldview that Piers Morgan also possesses is not too dissimilar from Clavicular's worldview. It is just a new generation of rhetoric around men, women, and the value that they have to provide to each other.

[01:34:35] But it's all rooted in the exact same thing. This is what frustrates me about content creation amongst us. I haven't watched too many Clavicular videos and no shade to different creators. But all of them have mostly done a lefty intellectual version of what Piers Morgan just did, right? It's mostly just like, isn't this guy weird? And I hadn't seen anyone engage with the critique that Clavicular presents to society.

[01:35:02] And now even more so, because I noticed the phrase, everything I've learned about this person is against my will. So that's been me with Clavicular, right? But I noticed how he has been everywhere, 60 Minutes, Adam Friedland, so on and so forth. And I'm like, man, this is a lot of media attention for a guy that clearly doesn't have a whole lot to say. And it's not that engaging. You all have ignored all the other assets of the Manosphere.

[01:35:31] Why is this one in particular of such importance to platform in all these spaces? And I realize it's because he's saying the quiet part out loud about the structural frameworks of our society. And they need to engage with it in order to pillory it so it sounds silly. Because this is maybe a bit of a reach. There's a framework of analysis happening here that a handful of these people might catch wind to.

[01:36:01] And then they might fuck around and hear this podcast and then start reading some shit. And then suddenly you have critical theory maxing. You know what I'm saying? Inshallah, inshallah. Right, hopefully. Absolutely. That's wishful thinking, obviously. But my point is that you can't identify the dark matter. It has to remain invisible. And he's doing that. And they're like, eh, no, you're silly. You're silly. I'm mogging you.

[01:36:30] I think that that's really true. And I also think that, and again, this reinforces Clavicula's worldview. But I suspect that another reason why all of these media outlets are willing and eager to profile him is because he is an attractive young man. Again, not endorsing the things he's done to get there. But he has succeeded in becoming very conventionally attractive. And I think he was to begin with, going back to that yearbook photo.

[01:36:56] But, like, Asmongold is an influencer who has a much bigger audience, I think, than Clavicula. And you never see the mainstream media talk about that guy. And he is not conventionally attractive. And I think that is a big point. Why? I think, like, news agencies famously love interviewing hot people and spotlighting hot people's stories.

[01:37:19] Because, again, I hate to say it, but to Clavicula's point, you will be more visible in society if you conform to these beauty standards. And, like, if you really wanted to talk about people who are influencing young men, you would see more of this, like, cast of male characters online. But you don't. The news doesn't even know that a lot of those guys exist. They literally are invisible to them because they're not bone smashing.

[01:37:48] On April 14, 2026, just a couple weeks ago, Clavicula was at a Miami bar with his fellow looksmaxer and friend, former friend, androgenic, where he looked extremely out of it. Kept reiterating how fucked up he was on whatever drug he'd taken as he walked around this nightclub with his camera crew and fans coming up to him taking selfies.

[01:38:12] Before he dropped onto a bench on the side of the club, Andrew Jenick offers him more Adderall. When did you last take blues? You want Natty? You want Natty? Then Clavicula goes unconscious and slides onto the ground as cameras cut out. iPhone footage from onlookers show a crew of people rushing him into an ambulance. He was brought to the hospital and treated for an overdose.

[01:38:37] There's no confirmation on what exactly he overdosed from, but it's rumored to have been a cocktail of drugs, including GHB. He returned to the internet the following day with a tweet. Just got home. That was brutal. All of the substances are just a cope trying to feel neurotypical while being in public. But obviously that isn't a real solution. The worst part of tonight was my face descending from the life support mask.

[01:39:04] And included was a selfie where he has sort of cuts all over his face, perhaps from falling over. It's unclear. And the following night, he was back on stream helping open a club in Miami. The worst part of, I'm trying to understand what he says. He said the worst part tonight was my face descending from the life support mask. Like, did he like fall? Like, what does that mean? Wait, you know what I just realized? It was the life support mask that cut up his face.

[01:39:32] Because in the world of looks maxing, ascending is what you do when you make yourself look better. That's part of the lingo. Oh. And so he's saying his face descended as a result of having to wear the life support mask, which is, that's fucking dark. Yeah. Wow. This whole thing is dark. Can we engage with the first part of this, though? Which, where he says all of the substances are just a cope trying to feel neurotypical while being in public.

[01:40:01] But obviously that isn't a real solution. Yeah. Because that is a real thing that neurotypical people deal with, including controlled substances. He's going to die young. Sad. Maybe tragic, but he's very nihilistic. So I just tend to, I struggle with the death of the nihilist sometimes because it's like, you got what you want. So the sadness is how much this probably resonates with a lot of people. Mm-hmm.

[01:40:31] And the fact that none of our social authoritative apparatuses are interested in addressing how we produce a clavicular and how he rises to fame and then gets platformed by numerous mainstream figures is what it is. I think one of my cynical takes on this and the media treatment of clavicular in particular is like... Clavicular in particular? Clavicular in particular. The media is just cashing in on this.

[01:41:00] Like, I think that there are some journalists who have written or examined clavicular who are not trying to do that, who are not engaging or writing or spotlighting him maliciously. But I do think that when you zoom out and you look at sort of the history of how the mainstream media engages with these very troubled nihilistic young people, it does start to feel like ambulance chasing. Like, this person's not going to be around for that long. Let's like cash in on the phenomenon as much as we can.

[01:41:28] And by the end of it, we haven't done anything to actually like better the world, let alone like this individual. And in fact, it's sad because it reinforces the idea that if you act this way, you will wind up beyond the cover of magazines. You'll be on TV. You'll get like all of this short-lived attention. Again, it just reinforces the clavicular worldview. You know, if you have young people trying to emulate this model and do the same thing,

[01:41:55] then I think at some point the media machine has to say like, are we complicit in this? Because we're literally creating a pathway for young people to get attention by doing this. And then we're giving them that attention they so desperately crave. I feel like one of my big, if not the biggest conclusion that I have around this whole thing is just that like clavicular is a symptom, not the cause. It's evidence.

[01:42:18] And my problem with like so much of the coverage is that they aren't willing to engage with the cause because it's hard and it's not sexy. You know, these sorts of constant coverage around like what this attractive young man spiraling out in Miami, that makes for a sexy story that'll get a lot of clicks and a lot of people laughing. And then like, who knows? Maybe he will die. He idolizes the YouTuber bodybuilder who did die.

[01:42:47] Yeah. And a lot of those bodybuilders die. Like bodybuilder, the average, I don't know the stats, but like tons of bodybuilder influencer type people die before 30, 440 or in their 40s. I know that there are plenty of people that are like YOLO with it all. And again, going back to what he saw as a kid, the use of substances to achieve a physical aesthetic is nothing that he would have been unfamiliar with.

[01:43:13] And I'm sure he's the consequences are what they are. And I feel like, and here's where I get really earnest. I'm always earnest. But I'm like, if you're listening to this podcast, if somehow this caught you, you're someone in Clavicular's target demo. I'm not going to tell you that you don't live in, at least to a certain extent, the world that Clavicular is describing. Lookism exists.

[01:43:39] People will treat you differently in many situations based on how you look. And also that is not a reason for you to just like lie down and surrender to that world because there are, I don't know. I don't know. And that's even hard for me to say because I do a lot of stuff to try to make myself look better. Right. I don't live outside of those norms either. I'm wearing all this makeup. I go to the gym every day. I do this and I do that. Like I can't pretend to live outside of it.

[01:44:07] I'm not the 60 minutes guy pretending I live in a world you don't also live in. But we shouldn't, you know, and we should all I don't know. We should fight for a world and for community building online and in real life where we can value what I think are objectively more important qualities in one another. All to say, I think we should start empathy maxing. Yes, exactly. I don't know. I don't know.

[01:44:36] That's a better name than the one I thought up earlier. The last thing I'll say is it reminds me a little bit of Andrea Dworkin's analysis. Someone who, mind you, literally just this past week on Twitter, I saw people posting pictures of Andrea Dworkin and being like, she looks like this and that's why she hates men, which again reinforces the clavicular worldview.

[01:44:58] But like part of Andrea Dworkin's analysis in right wing women was like, right wing women see the world clearly, they just don't want to change it. And I feel like that is a really big point with that separates you out from like the clavicular, like nihilism crowd and like the we recognize that these things are real, but we also actually want to strive for a better world crowd, which is like there is a better version of living that is not just like flaming out young.

[01:45:26] There is like a version of like looking outside the mainstream media echelon, looking outside, just trying to succeed within these narrow pathways that have been designed for us and trying to create different ones. And if only someone could point clavicular in that direction instead of just reinforcing that he's on the right path. Yeah. I have more hope and naive empathy for characters like this than the average person.

[01:45:55] I was preparing for my outro. So I grabbed the hammer. I'm sorry. Maybe it's the hammer. Maybe it's the hammer and sickle. Maybe he reads some books and it figures it out. But more than likely, he's just going to inexorably harm himself to the point where this world is no longer feasible. He's going to have a mental breakdown because like this level of masking daily, nightly, 24 hour streams is mentally taxing. So like there's some type of harm coming his way.

[01:46:26] And the aftermath analysis, I guess, will be interesting and we will learn nothing. I'm nihilist maxing. You are. But I don't know. It's nihilist maxing. I'm usually optimist maxing. But I think we meet in the middle at like realism maxing, which is actually probably closer to what you're saying. But I can still have. But you know what? This is the thing is like I can still have hope for everyone who follows him because they haven't cashed in all of their life on this road. That's true. That's true.

[01:46:53] The Manosphere stuff tends to be a phase for young men. God willing, you know, the younger they get in, usually the longer they stay. But hopefully the vast majority of them make it out and figure life out beyond it. FD and Kat, thank you so much for podcast maxing with me this afternoon. Appreciate you. It was fun. Where can people find more of each of you? I'm at SpitfireNews.com. That is my newsletter.

[01:47:21] I am context maxing over there. And Blue Sky. I'm on Instagram at Kattenbarge. I am mainly on YouTube at FD Signifier. That's the main tentpole channel. I have four or five other supplemental channels for different purposes. But the two most active are the FD Streams channel, which is me streaming. Sometimes it's gaming. Sometimes it's hot takes.

[01:47:50] And then there's the Signified B-Sides. This is more of like a commentary channel where I might talk about this or something else. I don't know. It tends to be interchangeable to topics. It's just the level of effort I put into it. I'm also barely on Blue Sky, barely on Threads, barely on Instagram. I'm trying to normal life max and dad max. And so I am getting social media mogged by most of my peers. This is the thing. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun.

[01:48:18] Thank you so much for listen maxing today. I so appreciate your time. I know you could have spent it, you know, maxing in all sorts of other ways. But I appreciate that you that you fruity maxed with us. I love you so much. I hope you continue to have a wonderful day and week. And until next time, keep fruity maxing. Peace and blessings, yo. It's so stupid. I have to stop.